You must make that lengthy journey as often as possible. Seriously consider a move wherever you must.

What else could possibly be a better reason to move?

Otherwise… I would say before your icons, intermittently on your face and facing East.

Can you prove that the bible specially the new testament is a biblical doctrine? Can you give a single verse from the bible for this?

If you live in a community where there are many people interested in Orthodoxy, it is always possible to attempt and start a mission.

I wish you well in your journey. It is never easy.

And in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness
Which was inexhaustible:
And around it were many fountains of wisdom:
And all the thirsty drank of them,
And were filled with wisdom,
And their dwellings were with the righteous and holy and elect.
And at that hour that Son of Man was named In the presence of the Lord of Spirits,
And his name before the Head of Days.
Yea, before the sun and the signs were created,
Before the stars of the heaven were made,
His name was named before the Lord of Spirits.

He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall,
And he shall be the light of the Gentiles,
And the hope of those who are troubled of heart.

All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him,
And will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits.

And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before Him,
Before the creation of the world and for evermore.

And the wisdom of the Lord of Spirits hath revealed him to the holy and righteous;
For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous,
Because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness,
And have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Spirits:
For in his name they are saved,
And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to their life.

You wrote:

Are you suggesting that the Bishop’s in Eastern churches were either not part of, or did not accept, the work of the Council at Laodicea (364 AD) and the Ecumenical Councils, and the subsequent approval of Popes, all which established a Christian Canon? and that this situation existed for about 600 years?

This is worded in such a way that I’m not exactly sure what you’re saying, but I’ll do my best to respond appropriately.

First of all, the Council of Laodicea was a local synod that had around 30 clergy in attendance. It was in no way an ecumenical synod, nor has the Church ever treated it as such (similarly, the same can be said about every regional/local synod – especially their Canons). Given that it was held in Phrygia (Asia Minor), there was of course an Eastern presence at this council.

More specific to your insinuation (I think), there was indeed a list of Scriptures given at this council. The fathers there declared: “Let no private psalms nor any un-canonical books be read in church, but only the canonical ones of the New and Old Testament. It is proper to recognize as many books as these …” What’s important here is that they are speaking of which books should “be read in church.” This doesn’t speak to a single-bound volume like a present day Bible, but rather is talking about the place of scripture in the context of the Church and its liturgical life (and as the protector and proclaimer of the infallible Truth of Christ). Additionally, there is the important qualifier “as many books as these,” indicating a lack of finality or limitation. This is no doubt because of the great disparity among lists at this time and the relative freedom given to local churches when it came to determining what should be read in Church. For those parishes or regions where there was no real issue (no one was trying to “sneak in” some heretical writings), there was no need for a great deal of regulation.

The Council of Trullo (Constantinople) in the 7th century does receive and approve the decisions of this council (and these Canons of Trullo are ecumenical, being the decisions of the 6th Ecumenical Council itself), but it also approves the Council of Carthage in the 4th century, which had a different list. There was no “single” list or “canon” at this point in history, plain and simple – at least not one that was ecumenically received and recognized as binding on the whole Church. The decisions of a “Pope” have no unilateral jurisdiction, and therefore any canon approved by the Archbishop of Rome (at any point in history) has no more authority than any other regional synod, unless it be received by the entire Church (and this never happened, and has in fact yet to truly happen in the East). What we have as a canon now is so by convention and by the guidance of the Holy Spirit; there has been no need to expand or contract it. But the idea that all of this was about a single “book” we call the Bible is anachronistic and simply false.

Finally, you wrote:

My reading, albeit not extensive, has not revealed that issues about the canon of scripture were a part of the Great Schism. In fact, my Orthodox friends have a Bible which mirrors my (Western) Catholic Bible. There is no ‘dispute’ between us about which books comprise the canon of scripture.

I don’t believe that this is the case, either, regarding the discussions around schism (the so-called “Great Schism” was far from the official split between East and West, incidentally – our fluctuating relationship persisted until the 15th century and the Council of Florence, where St Mark of Ephesus saved the Orthodox from heterodoxy).

However, that doesn’t change the fact that the Canon of the Eastern Orthodox Church is different from that of the Latins today – not only in the list of books (the Latins do not include what the Orthodox call 1 Esdras, 3/4 Maccabees, the Prayer of Manasseh and Psalm 151), but also in the textual basis. The Latins have unfortunately come to place priority on the Hebrew revision of the OT (done by the Masoretes in the late Middle ages), while the Orthodox have remained firm in their acceptance of the Septuagint (LXX) as the canon of the OT (in agreement with the early Church, the Apostles and Christ Himself, by practice).

Hope this helps!

In peace,
V

Are you suggesting that the Bishop’s in Eastern churches were either not part of, or did not accept, the work of the Council at Laodicea (364 AD) and the Ecumenical Councils, and the subsequent approval of Popes, all which established a Christian Canon? and that this situation existed for about 600 years?

My reading, albeit not extensive, has not revealed that issues about the canon of scripture were a part of the Great Schism. In fact, my Orthodox friends have a Bible which mirrors my (Western) Catholic Bible. There is no ‘dispute’ between us about which books comprise the canon of scripture.

Thanks,

Unless we place ourselves in the “era” of the Apostles, it makes it all the more difficult to understand their words.

Thankfully, the Church was there and it has handed the Truth down to us throughout the centuries.

Never Been Born

En. 38:2 And where the resting-place of those who have denied the Lord of Spirits?
It had been good for them if they had not been born.

Mat. 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Water Spring in Hades

En. 22:8-9 Then I asked regarding all the hollow places: ‘Why is one separated from the other?’ And he answered me saying: ‘These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And this division has been made for the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of water.

Lk. 16:23-24 And in Hades he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this
flame.

The Rich Man and His Barns

Enoch 97:8-9 Woe to you who acquire silver and gold in unrighteousness and say:
“We have become rich with riches and have possessions;
And have acquired everything we have desired.
And now let us do what we purposed:
For we have gathered silver,
And many are the husbandmen in our houses.”
And our granaries are (brim) full as with water…

Luk 12:16-21 And he spoke a similitude to them, saying: The land of a certain rich man brought forth plenty of fruits. And he thought within himself, saying: What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said: This will I do: I will pull down my barns and will build greater: and into them will I gather all things that are grown to me and my goods. And I will say to my soul: Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years. Take thy rest: eat, drink, make good cheer. But God said to him: Thou fool, this night do they require thy soul of thee. And whose shall those things be which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself and is not rich towards God.

Secret Thunders

En. 59:1-3 In those days mine eyes saw the secrets of the lightnings, and of the lights, and the judgements they execute (lit. ‘their judgment’): and they lighten for a blessing or a curse as the Lord of Spirits willeth. And there I saw the secrets of the thunder, and how when it resounds above in the heaven, the sound thereof is heard, and he caused me to see the judgements executed on the earth, whether they be for well-being and blessing, or for a curse according to the word of the Lord of Spirits. And after that all the secrets of the lights and lightnings were shown to me, and they lighten for blessing and for satisfying.

Rev. 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

For the devil and his angels

En. 54:4-5 And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: ‘For whom are these chains being prepared?’ And he said unto me: ‘These are being prepared for the hosts of Azâzêl, so that they may take them and cast them into the abyss of complete condemnation, and they shall cover their jaws with rough stones as the Lord of Spirits commanded.

Mat. 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Tares Gathered by Holy Angels

En. 54:6 And Michael, and Gabriel, and Raphael, and Phanuel shall take hold of them on that great day, and cast them on that day into the burning furnace, that the Lord of Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth.’

Matt. 13:30-9 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn…The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Blood up to the Horse’s Bridle

En. 99:2-3 For a man shall not withhold his hand from slaying his sons and his sons’ sons, and the sinner shall not withhold his hand from his honoured brother: From dawn till sunset they shall slay one another. And the horse shall walk up to the breast in the blood of sinners, and the chariot shall be submerged to its height.

Rev 14:19-20 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia.

Binding the Angel

En. 88:1-3 And I saw one of those four who had come forth first, and he seized that first star which had fallen from the heaven, and bound it hand and foot and cast it into an abyss: now that abyss was narrow and deep, and horrible and dark. And one of them drew a sword, and gave it to those elephants and camels and asses: then they began to smite each other, and the whole earth quaked because of them. And as I was beholding in the vision, lo, one of those four who had come forth stoned (them) from heaven, and gathered and took all the great stars whose privy members were like those of horses, and bound them all hand and foot, and cast them in an abyss of the earth.

Rev 20:1-3 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

The Orthodox view is strikingly balanced.

Paul uses that reference in order to warn against false Apostles (people who disguise themselves as Apostles, just as Satan disguised himself as an angel – and both in order to deceive God’s people).

So there’s certainly a connection between the themes.

The one place I would love to see some scholarly work is the connection of Sirach and Paul. After reading and studying Sirach, himself a renowned Rabbinic teacher in Jerusalem, it makes me wonder if Paul or his teacher Gamaliel wasn’t taught in the tradition or school of Sirach. The similarities and themes are amazing.

Jesus Himself uses the language of Sirach in the Sermon on the Mount, suggesting that this was common parlance to the ears of the Jewish crowds.

Now you have thrown in more books to read! I just grabbed a copy of the books of Enoch, and now I learn I must add another to the collection. There is no end.

Thanks

Did the Masoretes make that up too?

“To base our old testament Scriptures on their dishonesty and craftiness is absurd.”

Hear, hear…

Axios LXX!

It’s only the assumption of the Greek cubit that brings Goliath’s height down to anything close to normal by more modern standards.

I wonder too if the difference between the words or numbers ‘four’ and ‘six’ in Hebrew and/or Greek is particularly prone to scribal error.

Grace & Shalom,
Steve Kenney
Indianapolis, IN

Awesome!